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Drunken Badgers of Feathermoon • View topic - Saurfang Strat

Drunken Badgers of Feathermoon

Knock one back for the Drunken Badgersh!
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 Post subject: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:29 pm 
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Here's what I've been studying on Tankspot:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f128/58555-deathbringer-saurfang-encounter.html

Check the map with the group layout. Ranged/healers arranged in a semi circle near the teleporter, healers closest to the teleporter. Melee in Saurfang's face, opposite the teleporter, on or near the steps. Frost-traps/Earthbinds between the melee and the ranged. Ivory and Androtaz can set up this crawl zone so the Blood Beasts don't hit anyone. Main Tank holds aggro with single target stuff (Mangle, Lacerate; Judgement, Exorcism); OT can beat him up for a bit.

Blood Power is the buff that makes Saurfang into a frikkin murder machine. The more stacks on that buff, the harder Saurfang hits. Each stack is 1% more damage and 1% larger model. He accumulates stacks when he does damage with his super boss powahz, like Blood Nova. So if he gets you and the two players within 12 yards of you with damage from Blood Nova, he just got 3 additional stacks on Blood Power; 3% increase to damage and 3% bigger in size.

Blood Nova is an AE spell inflicting 10k damage to the target and anyone within 12 yards of the target. Using that nice /range tool in DBM, players will position themselves at least 12 yards from each other, in the manner illustrated in the strat guide linked above. This will limit the Blood Nova damage.

Blood Boil, which will give Saurfang 8 stacks in 25 seconds, should be removed by pallies when possible, with Hand of Protection (Skree can Ice out of it once, of course, and pallies can Divine Shield/Prot themselves). Blood Boil should be the only way the big dummy gets any stacks at all; he uses it with some frequency.

Blood Beasts will spawn and probably go for the healers since all DPS will be doing single target stuff. This is a single target fight (as far as it looks). The Blood puppies should be killed by ranged as fast as possible before they hit anyone. If they hit anyone, it is considered damage from a special attack and Saurfang gets a stack. Per hit. They are resistant to AE, Shadow dmg and Disease dmg. Fire, lighting and frost seem to be fair game.

Maybe, if needed between Frost Traps, Skree can lay down a blizzard when the puppies spawn. Even tho the Blood Beasts are 95% resistant to AE damage, they will still be affected by the Slow. Ranged should assist Xelian or Ivory and destroy that target. Wrack em up! Smack em up!

When Saurfang casts Rune of Blood, the OT taunts while the MT drops back til the Rune debuff drops off. RoB allows him to heal for 10x the damage he causes to the target with the Rune of Blood debuff. I believe it will also add to his Blood Power stack.

After 100 stacks, he will cast Mark of the Fallen Champion. This is the big gun becuz the marked player will also take damage when the main target takes damage. Each time that marked person takes damage in this manner, Saurfang gains another stack. With enough players marked, the healers may not be able to keep up and we will wipe. Not to mention, Saurfang heals 5% of his total health if the marked target dies.

At 25%, he enrages. He hits faster and accumulates more stacks faster (cuz of all the Marked players). More stacks, hits harder, et al. Kill him fast; Heroism, Offensive CD's, Brock Sampson, throw it all when he enrages.


Any questions? Input?


"In the world of martial arts, speed determines the victor." -Beast, from Kung Fu Hustle

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:19 pm 
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To break it down a little more succinctly:
MELEE DPS: wait for the tanks to have agro and burn into the boss. Long cool downs should be saved for the 30% enrage. Avoid doing an AoE action when the bloodbeasts are about to spawn. Not killer, but can save some Blood point accumulation from melee getting hit on for a bit. Use any damage mitigation abilities you have if you get Blood boil or Mark of the Fallen Champion (wasn’t that a Karazhan tier token?). I hear that rogues can feint to avoid damage from the debuffs. Other than that, go all out. Winner gets to top the DPS charts.

RANGED DPS: Stay at 12 yards from everyone, all the time. Ranged is responsible for killing the blood beasts when they spawn. There are only 2 and they don’t have much HP, so kite and kill quickly. They are effectively immune to AoE so they must be single targeted. Iceblock is the only ranged dps trick I know for avoiding damage from Blood Boil or MotFC.

HUNTERS: Just be glad you aren’t a healer. Hunters need to make sure that a frost trap is up at all times, positioned just behind the boss. They are also responsible for the initial grabbing of the beast to start the kite through the frost trap. Same as Ranged DPS otherwise.

TANKS: Have to taunt swap when tank swap debuff (Rune of Blood) is applied. Otherwise Tank and Spank.

HEALERS: While not a lot of details, cause healings about the same everywhere, I feel for you guys. Heal your hearts out, use all your damage mitigation tools (bubbles, HoS, HoP) and pray. Also ensure you are 12 yards from everyone else and can still raid heal.

Note on Bloodbeasts: Nearly every stun/snare affects the blood beasts, and the spawn rate is such that the cooldown should be available for every summons. Holy Wrath, Frost Nova, Warlock black smoke of stupid stun, Earthbind totem, and of course frost trap.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:29 pm 
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We got to see Deathbringer Saurfang enrage for 15 seconds; he hit me for 37k with a melee hit. What Worked and What FAILED?

...FAIL:
-Tanks had issues with Rune of Blood contributing to a few heals for the boss. Not good considering the DPS were split on the Blood Puppies.
-DPS on the Blood Beasts. With 3 ranged and 2 Bloodies, we had a difficult time knocking them out, with enough time to DPS the boss before the next Bloodies spawned. Each hit from a Bloodie gives him another stack. And those hits don't tickle squishies.


Xelian and Bo mentioned asking Andro to go Elemental next time for the additional DPS and the Thunderstorm knock back. If we do the Thunderstorm trick, it's a good idea to keep them coming down one lane as described in the Tankspot strat linked above. Maybe we could do Thunderstorm or... Maybe we could pay for Skree to have a Frost spec or Blast wave spec? (I would pitch in to the "Send Skreeonk to the Academy for Re-Programming" Fund (SSARP for short).

Also, what about sacking Xelian's pet for more dps.

WIN:
-Tanks; Rose and I had some Rune of Blood debuff timing issues but we fixed it. My DBM timer was a trickster so I stopped watching it.
-Heals; looked smooth as silk until we had 4 Marks fueling the boss. 4 MFC's mean that 5 people are simultaneously taking about 5-8k damage at once, per hit. OUCH! I would never want to heal this fight, ever.
-Slows; off the bat, the mobs were slowed but they weren't dealt with before they reached the edge of the slowed zone. Chains of Ice were a nice aid on the one that wasn't killed first. Again, I think setting up a path for the little beasties to follow is the way to go (yah, a broken record, whatever).

We could pick a side and the critter on that side will always be killed first. The critter on the opposite side will always get the Ice Chains from Vore since he can only chain one at a time (I think).


Take a good look at gear and gems and enchants. Are they maxxed? What would your mom, Xelian or Bogre think of your DPS gear set? Would they tell you to collect more badge gear, gem/chant and hit the dummies, HARD? Or would they sit back and nod approval? I know I still need the badge shoulders and chest piece. I will see some of you in the Dungeon Tool for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:23 pm 
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Ducky_6805 wrote:
Xelian and Bo mentioned asking Andro to go Elemental next time for the additional DPS and the Thunderstorm knock back.

After more research it has been determined we really do need 3 healers for this fight.

Ducky_6805 wrote:
Maybe we could pay for Skree to have a Frost spec or Blast wave spec? (I would pitch in to the "Send Skreeonk to the Academy for Re-Programming" Fund (SSARP for short).

Skree's DPS is incredlibly low as it is, switching to a lower spec, doesn't help this problem.


Ducky_6805 wrote:
Also, what about sacking Xelian's pet for more dps.

To which god? I'm a fan of Thor myself, but whichever .. enless you mean demonic sacrifice, which was removed.

Ducky_6805 wrote:
-Slows; off the bat, the mobs were slowed but they weren't dealt with before they reached the edge of the slowed zone. Chains of Ice were a nice aid on the one that wasn't killed first. Again, I think setting up a path for the little beasties to follow is the way to go (yah, a broken record, whatever).

We did set up a path, they went for me, because I usually had agro, I just think putting rightous fury on our primary healer so he can pull agro is a bad plan.


Ducky_6805 wrote:
We could pick a side and the critter on that side will always be killed first. The critter on the opposite side will always get the Ice Chains from Vore since he can only chain one at a time (I think).

I always went after the right side, Ivory and skree assisted off of me.


Ducky_6805 wrote:
Take a good look at gear and gems and enchants.

I agree with this completely.

Sadly our fail cannot be blamed on gear alone .. our DPS was abysmal, this needs to be corrected through skill and some time in front of the targeting dummy.


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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:59 pm 
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I will reply in line for the sake of argument. Take these for what they are, and not attacks at people.

Quote:
...FAIL:
-Tanks had issues with Rune of Blood contributing to a few heals for the boss. Not good considering the DPS were split on the Blood Puppies.
-DPS on the Blood Beasts. With 3 ranged and 2 Bloodies, we had a difficult time knocking them out, with enough time to DPS the boss before the next Bloodies spawned. Each hit from a Bloodie gives him another stack. And those hits don't tickle squishies.


Ranged DPS was abysmal. PERIOD


Quote:
Xelian and Bo mentioned asking Andro to go Elemental next time for the additional DPS and the Thunderstorm knock back. If we do the Thunderstorm trick, it's a good idea to keep them coming down one lane as described in the Tankspot strat linked above. Maybe we could do Thunderstorm or... Maybe we could pay for Skree to have a Frost spec or Blast wave spec? (I would pitch in to the "Send Skreeonk to the Academy for Re-Programming" Fund (SSARP for short).


While Andro is more than willing. His gear is not. Andro's primary job is healing for us currently. His gear does not meet the raid's requirements and that makes gearing his healing set up a priority if he is to continue healing for Stoli. Asking him to fully gear up 2 specs is absurd, it was just an idea that was thrown on the table.

We are running 3 healers currently. Having skree respec to a CC mage spec will only hurt our lack of DPS more.

Quote:
Also, what about sacking Xelian's pet for more dps.


1) Xelian sacking his pet would kill his DPS regardless of any of its other benefits.
2) Xelian is a destro lock, not demonologist
3) Pet sac was removed in 3.1 (http://www.wowwiki.com/Demonic_Sacrifice)

Quote:
WIN:
-Tanks; Rose and I had some Rune of Blood debuff timing issues but we fixed it. My DBM timer was a trickster so I stopped watching it.
-Heals; looked smooth as silk until we had 4 Marks fueling the boss. 4 MFC's mean that 5 people are simultaneously taking about 5-8k damage at once, per hit. OUCH! I would never want to heal this fight, ever.
-Slows; off the bat, the mobs were slowed but they weren't dealt with before they reached the edge of the slowed zone. Chains of Ice were a nice aid on the one that wasn't killed first. Again, I think setting up a path for the little beasties to follow is the way to go (yah, a broken record, whatever).


Tanks: It is what it is. You guys learned your rythym well.
Heals: We never had more than 3 marks. 2 marks requires a dedicated healer. When we got 3 it became, "who do I let die?"
Slows: Vore is frickin' on the mark! He did awesome with his CC. Lack of DPS makes everything else a non-issue at the moment.

Quote:
We could pick a side and the critter on that side will always be killed first. The critter on the opposite side will always get the Ice Chains from Vore since he can only chain one at a time (I think).


12 yard range makes this VERY difficult, and they don't have a set aggro table.

Quote:
Take a good look at gear and gems and enchants. Are they maxxed? What would your mom, Xelian or Bogre think of your DPS gear set? Would they tell you to collect more badge gear, gem/chant and hit the dummies, HARD? Or would they sit back and nod approval? I know I still need the badge shoulders and chest piece. I will see some of you in the Dungeon Tool for sure.


Bottom Line.
I expect everybody to have the best possible gear they can get. ICC is iLvl251+. Triumph badges are are candy. I expect EVERYBODY to be in full 232 gear with proper geming and proper enchants as recommended by EJ for your role and spec. ToC is pointless to farm and ToGC we can't do. That leaves us raiding ICC right at the brink of destruction.

In order for us to continue to raid, its time for us we need to trim the fat. Everybody picks up the slack and gets their stuff the best possible. Inevitably, this means I may end up having to cut people if they can't pick up their slack.

- Bo


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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:34 pm 
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Severe lack of DPS is a major problem this fight. Everything else really is a non-issue if you're lacking stronger than average DPS. The raid has to be able to punch a lot harder than the average player to beat new content.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:45 pm 
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Cliffton wrote:
Severe lack of DPS is a major problem this fight. Everything else really is a non-issue if you're lacking stronger than average DPS. The raid has to be able to punch a lot harder than the average player to beat new content.

The mighty belt buckle has spoken, and then so shall it be.


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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Roselee's Insane Strat Idea
Image

Here goes.
Tank Saurfang on the top of the steps facing the raid. This is his initial position.

Right side add: Ivory keeps a frost trap up so that the right side add will spawn in the trap to be slowed. All ranged kill this add. A Tremor totem placed outside the frost trap area should keep the add from reaching ranged before it is dead. (Suggestions) If the add is moving toward Skree/Ivory, Xelian should use Searing pain to try and taunt it back. Otherwise Ivory should MD to Skree if it is headed toward Xelian. Really this add should die quick.

Left side add: Melee stops on boss and engages this add, trying to keep it shut down as much as possible, but proiritizing killing it. Yes it will build up blood points, but at the moment, getting the adds killed in a timely fashion is the issue and not healing. When the right side add is dead, range can assist on the left add and then should go back to the boss.

This will probably result in one more Mark of the Fallen Champion over the course of 8 minutes, but with the added dps on the boss the fight should not last that long.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:20 pm 
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I love the drawing, Rose. You mean Earthbind Totem, I am sure. Set the trap up front and the totem a bit closer to the ranged. Good idea, that.

About the melee DPS though, the melee DPS have the job of punching a hole in the boss. The ranged DPS must take care of the job they are assigned to do. They can do EEET! Pulling the melee off the boss only prolongs the agony, no? I know we had that boss enraged once. We know that the DPS can accomplish this. We just need this accomplished on a more consistent basis in a much quicker fashion. Moving melee off the boss might be counter-productive to that end.

Bo and Xel are right. Gear up, chant up (I can enchant), gem up (I am a JCer on my pallie). Speak to someone in your class who is better than you. Get your ass to the dummies and crush the meter!

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Assume the ranged is a single entity with 9k dps. The melee a single entity with 7.5
The adds have 60kish hP each. They spawn every 40 seconds

Scenario 1:
Ranged on adds, melee on boss
Ranged burn through 120k hp in 14 seconds. In that 14 seconds melee did 105k damage to the boss.
Over the next 26 seconds combined do 429k damage for a grand total of 534k damage to the boss. Or raid average of 2670 dps/raider. It would take 8.7 minutes to kill the boss assuming no heals to the boss.

Scenario 2:
Both on adds:
Ranged add dies in 6.5 seconds. Melee add takes 52k damage in 8 seconds, leaving 8k for all dps to focus on for 1 more second. 18k damage to the boss from ranged over 2 seconds, and then 32 seconds of full dps for 528 damage is a grand total of 546k damange to the boss or raid average of 2730 dps/ raider. It would take 8.5 minutes to kill the boss assuming no heals. However, ranged would have more time to set up their combos on the boss, given that they would have 7.5 more seconds to work on the boss, have almost a full heroism, and would spend less time moving (if any)

Both secenarios are below the 2920 dps that is required to kill the boss before the enrage, but hopefully the tank dps, heroism and stacking dots will get to that point. Scenario 2 is harder on the healer though because there is a greater chance of the boss getting blood points from the melee dps than in scenario 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:05 pm 
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I'm not saying it won't work or that I wouldn't try it.

I will say that the melee will spend more than 8 seconds away from the boss. There's time to position involved, seconds but still those seconds add up over the course of the 8-9 min fight. Not to mention the 8 seconds of the beasts pounding on them, damage to heal and stacks for the boss (probly 8 stacks or more).

If we do this, Grexis could lock down the mob with stuns. Bogre did say we had no trouble with Marks, what's a few extra stacks (stunned mobs stack nothing). It's a viable option to consider since that would be the only downside of the strat, from what I see.

AND we could still bring up DPS. No reason to relax on that avenue. I also would like to add that the melee combined DPS is probly closer to 10k and the ranged probly closer to 11k if my memory serves.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:10 pm 
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Maybe frost trap isn't the way to go. Maybe we should put one on ice for a few seconds instead of slowing both down. We rely on the earthbind totem and an ice trap.

One gets slowed for less but he will be dead in seconds. Hell, we could chains one and ice the second.... We ice the left side and chain the right side, PLUS the earthbind totem. The ice trap will be up before the next set of bloodies spawn. We just keep doing that. Range doesn't have to panic.

Just throwing out ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:08 pm 
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I don't believe that they can be shackled or trapped, only slowed, stunned or snared. Yes, the DPS numbers in reality would be different, that was just a theoritical model. However, I do remember that Grexis's DPS was just about 5.5k, Xelian around 4 and the rest of the dps in the 2-3 range. That would be, assuming best case, 8.5k melee dps and 10k ranged, however I believe they were closer to the ranges assumed in the model. True, there is no excuse for sub par DPS, especially from gear or enchants/gems, I was suggesting a plan that focused more DPS on the boss and less on the adds.

Edit: Given Bo's DPS numbers below: Ranged was at 10,010 DPS and melee at 8375.

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Last edited by Roselee on Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:28 pm 
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DPS:

Grexis - 5703.1
Xeian - 4002.3
Ivory - 3290.0
Vore - 2672.3
Skree - 2718.6
Rose - 1746.9
Shad - 1187.6

---

Inconsequential DPS captured:

Bo - 22.3
Andro - 15.6

-------------------------------

Damage Done:
Grexis - 2,782,900
Xelian - 1,933,786
Ivory - 1,387,143
Vore - 1,058,777
Skree - 902,753
Rose - 863,868
Shad - 584492

---

Inconsequential Damage Done:

Bo - 9530
Andro - 7110

-------------------------------

Fight Lasted: 8 Minutes 17 Seconds
(Enrage Timer Hit, Raid Raped)

-------------------------------

Things To Note:
Skree:
DPS vs Damage Done is equalized finally. Now to figure out her problem, and raise her DPS 500k+
- Crit Gemmed (Switching to +SP may solve that gap alone)
- 20% non-raid +hit (Needs more haste overall and +SP)
+ Skree is very good at utility tasks, just need to fix what's above I think to solve the issue.

Vore:
- Crit Gemmed (Blood DK's should be +STR and nothing else, even if they go under hit cap.)
- Missing 6 enchants (Easily Solved)
- Possible rotation issue
- Needs to replace a Major Glyph
+ Vore learns well and is open to improvement.
+ Fixing gems, enchants, and glyphs I think will solve this

Ivory:
- Still has a lot of sub 232 gear, this is unacceptable
- I know nothing else about hunters
+ Ivory is at 3290 DPS, Fixing his gear I feel will fix his DPS


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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:34 pm 
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In defense of Ivory, his current armory shows his gear to be all 232 or higher with the exception of cloak, trinket and boots. I can speak to the difficulty in upgrading those slots with badge gear (cloaks are only 200 and now 251; and ilvl on trinket doesn't make it BiS depending on class).

Oh and if those damage numbers are right (and I have no reason to doubt them) then that means that the boss healed for at least 1.2 million HP over the duration of the fight. That's a lot of healing.

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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:14 am 
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Ivory has finished his upgrades minus those three things you pointed out. I was looking at that last night.

I know 25 is a lot different than 10, but looking at ICC25 stats Vore has improved significantly after working with him. Let's hope it carries over to 10-Man fun.

As for skree, I am not really sure what to do with her. I need some good arcane mages to talk to. Wattz is one, I'll have to see if I can get a hold of him. Any others that stick out that you all think would be willing to help?


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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:47 am 
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Consider me "gotten ahold of" what can I do ya for?


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 Post subject: Re: Saurfang Strat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Wattz,
Would you make a post titled something like "How to be an 3.3 Raiding Arcane Mage in early ICC" in the General forum? Gear priorities (haste v crit v sp), what to gem for, spell rotation, any mods you use, etc?

Alternatively (assuming Skree has gotten all of this information from EJ herself), would you work with her personally in-game? Skree is more than willing to follow instructions and Bogre will install and configure any helpful addons that will increase her damage output. I've tried to query mages for Skree in the past, but we had a serious lack of mages at the time (just Malizz 6 months after he swapped his main to treekin) and I have no idea what to say beyond "Always Focus Magic on the Moonkin." Malizz seemed to think it was a spell rotation issue.

Skree's full name is Skreeonk (or something similar if my mind is slipping; it's in the guild roster).

_________________
Mooooooooooooooooonkin!


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