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Drunken Badgers of Feathermoon • View topic - Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:57 am 
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Jezrael wrote:
If people don't sign up enough to earn the requisite points they get removed from the SK list. That's pretty good incentive to sign up.


Actually yes, Adend will be removed from the SK list. Even if you count his possibles as correct signups (and therefore 8 correct signups in 8 weeks) he still only has 2 points. He's only attended ONCE in the last 8 weeks, on 5/8.

With Nastius's attendance this week he will squeek by and continue to have his 3 points, but barely.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:13 am 
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Quote:
If people don't sign up enough to earn the requisite points they get removed from the SK list. That's pretty good incentive to sign up.


our policy is pretty loose though were you can forget to signup correctly 50% of the time and still be on the SK list.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:36 pm 
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Well we can always tighten it up by increasing the number of points required. Is this something the raid officers want to do?

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:26 pm 
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I think the policy is fine being loose, it's filtering out the worst "offenders" and punishing them lightly (loot list), seems a good way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:10 pm 
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Shuu and Hrothgar miss a relatively high percentage of raids (nearly 50% in the last 8 or so?). Zoble has a friend interested in joining. Should we consider it time to bump these two off of the regulars list and pull in more regular replacements? This would free up a spot for Zoble's friend if he's good enough and joins us, and lets us recruit for a 25th.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:33 am 
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Sounds good to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:21 pm 
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shuu is completely mia. i think he can be moved to sub at this point. we should talk to hroth about attendance. his attendence was very good until he became and regular and then it was not very good which is disappointing.

coreus and avrus are good candidates for regular spots.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:33 am 
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I moved Shuu to sub.

Do we need any more discussion before making Avrus and Coreus regulars?


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:50 am 
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Probably. I lean Avrus if he can make it regularly. First, he's guild. Second, he's rogue, and rogue dps > warlock dps in pve Ulduar. Third, we don't have an excess of either Rogue or Lock, melee or ranged, in the raid.

Zoble's Farstriders friend, Padius-alt, if he can perform, is probably a better fit class-wise than either Avrus or Coreus.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:19 pm 
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But he's not coming =/ (Padius-Alt, mage's name is actually Cindarr)

Lack of funds to transfer, plus he thought his guild was falling apart but now he's apparently going to try to salvage it.

Oh well. Thought it could work out great but apparently not.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:18 pm 
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I've updated the raid attendance spreadsheet to add a new sheet for the next eight weeks. I've also deleted lines for a bunch of players that haven't raided with us in ages. Jud can you give me the official word on who I should move into my 'regulars' part of the sheet. I know you looking at Avrus as a regular. Who will be the other player? This is to replace Shuu and Hrothgar.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:01 am 
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avrus is now a regular replacing hroth.

i think coreus should get shuu's spot. any objections to that?


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:10 pm 
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I have a couple thoughts about the attendance policy. I noticed these issues because of Jardinn's situation since I know him and am therefore more aware of his list eligibility. The week of the August 14 raid, Jardinn signed up late on Wednesday. Judrog confirmed him Friday, and he did attend the raid but received no points. It seems to me he should get no points for sign up but should get his one attendance point.
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1 point is assigned for attendance at a raid unless there was no sign up in Raid Ninja - in this case no points are awarded for raid attendance.

Since the rule says you get no points if there is NO sign up, and the attendance spreadsheet has a designated color for incorrect sign ups, it appears to me that it's possible to get the attendance point and just lose the sign up points. This distinction does not matter to most of us since we're already are on the list, but for new people it makes a big difference. If any flaws in the sign up are intended to earn the raider zero points for the week, the wording could be changed.

Another issue which has prevented Jardinn from making the list though he has raided with us a decent amount is that he hadn't officially applied before starting to raid with us. If I remember correctly, he did a full raid with us and joined us mid raid the night Hodir was giving us problems. I propose that people who are accepted as official subs would get attendance credit (one point, half a point?) for full raids they attended before becoming a sub. This change would not require Jez to add to the list every pug we ever use--only ones who subsequently become subs. It would only require a check to see if a new sub did any full raids in the recent past. The applicant could even be required to post the WoL reports as proof of attendance.

Maybe he just had an unusually bad combination of factors, but it seemed to me that Jardinn earned list worthiness before the technicalities allowed him to be on the list. I don't claim to be unbiased about Jardinn, but are these ideas OK?


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:18 pm 
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A few thoughts:

Firstly, the policy for signups is there so that people HAVE to sign up (correctly) to get credit. This is absolutely on purpose, as we want to be able to be fair to everyone including letting our subs know in a timely manner if they'll be needed on Friday night or if they can go find another raid to go to. If it were not a requirement, people could just show up Friday night, hope for an invite, and stay on the SK list. That's not what we want. Raid Ninja is a required piece for raiding with us, and this is how we enforce it. (However, if the other raid officers/leaders/etc feel this needs to change, I don't mind, it was added in at the request of others, but seems to work and make sense)

However and secondly, I think we could make exceptions for subs on their first raid or two, to not require a signup. But we do need to see people consistently signing up correctly with Raid Ninja before being allowed on the list. I would be willing to say that if you have attended 3 previous raids (in past 8 wks), and including the current raid you have signed up correctly for 2 or more of them, we could add you before the raid. This gives subs 2 weeks leeway on getting an app / getting signed up with raid ninja and learning to correctly use it, which seems more than fair and generous to me.

I haven't checked Jardinn's specific case, but I am not opposed to making exceptions on a case by case basis.

Honestly I don't even check the spreadsheet until it's time to reshuffle, I see someone on the list that I haven't seen at the raid lately, or someone sends me a tell asking why they're not on it.

While it makes the spread-sheeting harder, I would not be opposed to having a lesser number of points assigned for a "late" signup, be it 1 (instead of 1.125) or 1/2 or whatever, but Jez would be the one having to deal with it...


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:08 pm 
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I sort of see the logic behind your first paragraph Zoble, but I think there is more involved in the situation. If people fail to sign up they aren't guaranteed a spot at all. Their chances of raiding decrease if they don't sign up, so there isn't a lot of motivation to wait. I don't oppose putting pressure on people to sign up of course since we need to know who is coming. Overall on that point, I guess I'm just picky about wording. The policy says you get no points if there is NO sign up, not if you're late--we could change this to be clearer whether going forward we're being totally strict or less so.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:23 pm 
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Ah, I've always thought of it as a "correct" sign-up.

And not to be giving away our trade secrets, but signing up as "possible" every single week (on time) is always a correct signup :P

If you don't know by the deadline, say possible, and inform people as soon as you do know. You won't be guaranteed a spot over anyone who said yes by the deadline, but much more likely than someone online Friday who never visited RN.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:30 pm 
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And....I believe, that if you haven't raided with us before, and you aren't an "officialized" sub or regular for Whiskey, but you attend with us for whatever reason (last minute fill-in, whatever)....by default, you signed up correctly since correct signup for you was in fact no sign up at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:29 pm 
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It's not a matter of "incentive to sign up late." There is never any *incentive* to sign up late, there is merely forgetfulness and laziness. We all do it, it's no big deal. But neither should it be encouraged with partial credit. I agree that a sub who we pulled in at the last moment is correctly signed up per Cliff. And it's fine to let them have a little leeway in getting through the process since they weren't necessarily expecting to join the raid (even as a sub). However, they need to get signing up pretty swiftly (1 week grace period, max) or raid planning becomes very frustrating. Loot is the best way to encourage people to get their ducks in a row, otherwise they'll default to doing whatever is easiest for them- and skipping the application, RN hassle, and signups is most assuredly easiest.

I don't know all the details on Jardinn, but you're making it sound like he tried to skip the process and is sad that the rules explicitly bar loot to folks who skip the process. That's the way things are set up, and I don't understand why that's a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Quote:
you're making it sound like he tried to skip the process and is sad that the rules explicitly bar loot to folks who skip the process

No, that's monstrously different from any impression I hoped to have given. Since I knew he was a very competent player and we were short of raiders some weeks, he did a bit of raiding with us before he applied. Then after he became an official sub came the late sign up issue which we've been discussing. I do see how the Tuesday/Wednesday deadlines could be a bit confusing to people at first. The result of all of this didn't seem quite fair to me--that he could raid with us as much as he did and not make the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Ninja Attendance Spreadsheet
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:18 pm 
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Ah, so you're just seeking back-credit for services rendered? I can see that, for the first two. But the magic 3rd raid should definately be 100% per process. I see he's in RN on the subs list, so should be more or less good to go.

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