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Drunken Badgers of Feathermoon • View topic - Taking a hiatus from Whiskey

Drunken Badgers of Feathermoon

Knock one back for the Drunken Badgersh!
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 Post subject: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:21 am 
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I am going to be stepping back from raiding with Whiskey. I'm just not having fun anymore and haven't for a while now.

There are a whole bunch of reasons I guess. Badger raiding used to be about having fun and seeing content, at least that is how it felt to me. These days it feels like the sole focus is on performance and progression and it's just stressful and no longer fun. I don't know whether this is because my level of enthusiasm has waned or the focus of the raid has changed or both. I used to love researching and min-maxing and farming to be the best raider I could be. Now it just feels like work. I don't really care about server firsts or how far progressed the raid is.I don't want to spend hours reading strats and watching vids. I've become more and more resentful of the time raiding and prepping for raiding takes me away from doing things I'd rather be doing - whether in game or out.

I'm also pretty bored of playing my hunter so that's another factor.

I've enjoyed raiding with everyone immensely and am so proud of what we have achieved since our early days. Hopefully having a break will rejuvenate my enthusiasm. But until then -the best of luck to Whiskey.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:09 am 
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well, i'll miss you jez. it's been a true pleasure raiding with you.

here's where i stand on whiskey:
1) i'm interested in continuing to raid, and am happy to continue a leadership role. however,
2) for the next 2 months or so i won't be online much except for friday nights due to work schedule and will generally have pretty limited time to carry any responsibility outside of Friday night. after 2 months, things should get back closer to normal (i hope).
3) i'm not able to commit more that one night a week to raiding. if whiskey was to require 1 night 25 man+1 night 10 man per week, I would not be able to qualify as a regular.
4) i like progression raiding and want a raid that takes things seriously. however, i place more priority on having fun and hanging out with the folks i've been raiding with since Kara. if most of the raid leadership was to retire from whiskey and/or go do another 10-man raid, my interest would probably wane.

Feels like whiskey has a little bit of an identity crisis and needs to figure out what it's going to be:
1) Core group of DB'ers having fun and progression raiding -- this is probably better suited in a 10 man environment as it's very tough to have a 25 person raid where (a) you enjoy spending time with everyone, (b) everyone is similar performance level, and (c) you don't spend an annoying amount of time dealing with DCs/AFKs/filling sub spots/etc.
2) Casual 1 night a week 25 man raid -- this is where we are at today (for right or wrong). we are lax on performance/DCs/research/etc.
3) Serious 1 night a week 25 man progression raid
4) Serious progression 25 man raid (>1 night per week commitment)

feels like a number of folks are longing for the good ole kara/za days and have found that in Chaser/Vermouth. that's great. if most of the officers wanted to go do that instead on Friday nights, i'd be game. otherwise am happy to stick around and see if we can make whiskey a fun/enjoyable single night progression raid.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Here's my 2¢

I find all the AFKs and disconnects and downtime disturbing. I would rather be wiping on a boss than sitting there doing nothing.

I don't mind being loot master during the raids at all, but Jez used to help with keeping track of who goes on the list and who doesn't, now its a bit of a subjective mess. I could use another person to step into her previous role. I think we can simplify it however from the entire spreadsheet... Maybe just take the current SK list (which I don't mind posting more often) and compare it to signups at the end of Wednesday. Report those who is on the list but hasn't signed up, and that's all we'll keep track of.

I am a bit tired of missing a lot of fun things that go on during Friday nights outside of WoW. In order to do more of these fun things, I may want to start missing something like 1 in 4 raids (attending 3/4). I guess I've felt that with so few tanks, and me being the loot master always, its been a responsibility of mine to the raid to show up every week I possibly can. I think that will be enough of a "break" for me for now. In order for this to happen, someone else has to loot master something like 1/4 weeks. I'll be happy to set someone else up with SK mod and walk them through it in game.

I'm not really TOO dissapointed at the general progression of our raid. We kill a lot of bosses and get a lot of loot to people. There is still a lot of loot I want from the bosses we kill (although most of it is the trinket and tier upgrades), and frost badges aren't worthless. I'm sad that we're stuck where we are for the reasons we are, but I'm satisfied (for now) with the progress we have.

So, overall, I'm willing to stick with it but take a slight step back. I need at least one person to step up and help with loot... to run the SK mod and be loot master once a month or so, and to keep track of signups a bit better than we are now. And if Cliff is going away for a while, this leaves me and mogri as MTs with Seel helping out on a few bosses... if I want to miss the same week Cliff is gone, then what?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:17 pm 
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i think we need to build up another tank or two and give them priority for drops over all the other raiders. Could be Malizz, could be Jud. or another. these people can roll need if none of the other main tanks need it. With Cliff out, Zoble gone 1 out of 4, and Mogri DC'ing a lot, we need additional dependable tankage so the raid isn't screwed if Zoble is out or Mogri is DC'ing.

we definetly need a backup loot master. would be great to have one of the other leaders step up and fill in. if i don't end up leading the raid a particular evening, i'll do it.

we need a DC/AFK policy. proposal: 2 DCs and/or unannounced AFKs during the evening and the officers can remove you from the raid for that evening. if this happens on more than 2 nights in a SK period, you are moved to sub. also, if you DC for a particular fight, you aren't allowed to come back and roll on loot. we'll take an additional scheduled break each week to allow folks to get food, take a bio, etc.

btw, regarding progression, our ICC progression is about as good as it's ever been. we are server 8 right now, which is the same or better than TOC, Ulduar, Naxx. And we are pretty close on Blood Queen. and i think we can make some pretty quick/easy improvements.

Malizz, i think we should start recruiting for all positions once we settle on a gameplan.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Zoble,

I'd be willing to help you on loot, but I'm not expecting my new computer for about 3 weeks (supposed to ship 3/12). Can you hold out? Maybe I can compare WOL and RN for you for attendance?

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:28 am 
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I am willing to help out wherever needed. Jud tanking may not be a bad idea. Pally tanks rock and we seem to have enough heals at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:01 pm 
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I'm in this for the long haul, want to make this 1 night raid a week work for us, as it is the only raid that works for me. We should assess our regs list, I think if Lurne can commit to most Fri nights, he should be added as a reg. Squall is questionable with the DCs problems in 25 man, good raider but if he can't overcome that technical constraint we just can't take him. Chia is still handling performance, so Halexx if you want I can help with recruiting on the forums and reviewing apps since you still control the roster and RN confirmations.


Also to Jud's point I think we should market ourselves as a serious 1 night progression raid, still means we can have fun but we take our raid seriously in success and demand the same attitude by fellow raiders. I like the idea of AFKs and D/Cs..we should just make that formal announcement in raid next week, the decision to remove from the raid for that night should be swift and consistent with a follow-up to the raider that it was for the benefit of the raid overall and an expected courtesy to 24 other players waiting to go.

As for performance overall, we need to take a harder line on casual comments and mistakes on easy mechanics in raid. It can start as much as a personal wsp to a raid to focus and get their shit together and escalate to a raid suspension as I mentioned in a previous post after 3 mistakes in a raid which are obvious violations like leaving fire in melee, not clearing links, pulling aggro from tanks, kiting the wrong way or not kiting at all. The raid is more fun when everyone knows their job and executes it well, we should stress that in all these things we put in place to improve the quality of the raid. I don't want to come off being Nazi'z about performance but for some people you have to to motivate them. If we need the heavy handed decision, I'll offer up to execute if needed.


Just let me know, I ran Chaser to succeed and if anyone hindered it, they did not come back and I moved on with no hard feelings or grudges, we should do the same for Whiskey in that regard as the remaining core I think has shown they care and are committed to making this raid work so it should get that level of respect from all attending.

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Last edited by Yellowjacket on Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:20 pm 
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I recommend these new rules for the raid. These don't seem too harsh or radical, but perhaps should be brought up:

-No talking on vent during a boss fight unless it is relevant to winning the fight (the pokemon or whatever stuff irritated me a lot)
-If you have disconnect problems we are going to replace you faster if a replacement is available. Please try to do everything in your power to correct these on your end. If your disconnect causes the raid to wipe or wait 3+ minutes on you more than once in an evening, prepare to be replaced. We may move regulars to sub as well who have disconnect issues. We just can't spend all night wiping and waiting due to this. If you disconnect once, TURN OFF RECOUNT. It's not a needed raid mod.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:26 pm 
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As for another tank, Seelyon has been pretty well set up for it. I assume you mean we need yet another one.

If Diseased were a more mature player I would recommend him just to get a DK tank in the mix.
Malizz has a good bear tank set and may make a decent replacement for the weeks that I am gone as he'd give the feral buffs that you'd be missing at least on the bosses I tank. The negative to it being malizz is that it would be easier to gear up a plate tank, since malizz would have to wait for 3-4 people to win leather gear (av chia me, maybe me again for dps) to tank in, while a plate wearer would have to wait 2-3 (cliff, mogri, maybe seelyon)
Judrog already seems to have a good ret set as his offspec, while both Dizzy and Malizz already have tanking as their offset.

Overall, the 3rd raid tank doesn't have to be an exceptional tank in ICC.
Trash: I think you can handle every bit of trash with 2 tanks.
1st boss: just stand there making threat getting saber lashed. All you need is some hp and mitigation and healers. I'm also not convinced that you couldn't just 2 tank it.
2nd boss: normally just tank one trash thing. Only exciting thing I do is taunt people's deformed dudes to help kite them. Help with the boss at the end, but its really even optional at that point, as 2 tanks can do it fine.
Putricide: DPS in tank gear for most of the fight, help tank at the end. Takes some skill to kite and taunt at the right time, but I don't think its incredibly gear dependent.

The rest of the fights the 3rd tank is in another spec.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:16 pm 
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I agree on keeping vent clear. The pokemon/random nonsense annoyed me too. Also, it seems like it might be getting to a point where it's a problem with too many people (Wattz) thinking they're the strat master and giving out conflicting advice on vent. I don't know if the rest of you think it's a problem. For one thing, it's not ideal when the strat is still up in the air when we reach the boss. I like the policy we've had of hashing out ideas on the forum, and if we make stricter rules about reading/posting on the strat threads, this could work even better. Obviously, tweaking strats during the raid to fix issues is fine.

/Agree on DC strictness too.

I'm OK with doing some tanking if it is needed.

I'll post again on the FM forum to recruit. A lot of the proposed policies about replacing people will result in shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't get additional skilled subs. If you see forum apps before I do YJ, it would help if you respond.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Are there any classes we don't want to recruit? Still no more pallies?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:13 pm 
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I think we could use the following:

DK - DPS primary/tank off spec highly desirable (4th need as a backup to Dizzy, which seems he's regular so only a sub position in the near term)
Warrior - same as above (probably our #1 need to get a reg Warrior on the roster)
Ret Pally - same as above (this is in case we use Seel to tank, so 3rd need and prob a sub position)
Hunter - missing a Jez and Lurne now is out for a while so we have no hunter bench. I heard Elasyn(not sure about the spelling) had left Pinnacle * Edit I looked at his last festergut parse prob not a good choice.(2nd need for reg with Jez and Lurne's status)

@Jez since we hijacked your thread..."From the ashes of a great hunter arises a phoenix a month or so from now..it's Trippy the rogue!" When we asked people to stab harder we didn't think they'd all want to roll a rogue :P .

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:40 pm 
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As much as I hate to admit it for my poor dps set gear, but we could use a feral dps sub too, one who specializes in cat.

Offspec can be bear tanking or really anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:45 pm 
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@YJ hahaha yes I'm really enjoying playing Tippy and maybe she will become a raiding toon.. we'll see :P Maybe after a break I'll be fired up to raid on Jaz again, who knows.

So a couple of thoughts on the conversation in here:

1. Talking on vent. YES this has really annoyed me in the past. People should have the respect to STFU when raid strategy is being communicated. This week in particular I was very annoyed by Wattz. I think being very firm is needed here - but at the same time - discussing strategy in an open vent channel is an invitation to people to contribute albeit a silent one. I think it's really important to have a clear plan and that any discussion that doesn't ask for input from others take place in officer chat or another vent channel. Discussing and not being able to decide on an approach or vacillating in the general vent channel also makes the raid leadership appear weaker and indecisive.

2. Currently the raid has one break in 5 hours. If the raid was an employer in Australia it would be taken to court because it is illegal to only allow people one break in 5 hours. I would reccomend scheduling more frequent but shorter breaks and telling people up front. I strongly believe you will see less random AFKing and also better performance. Having a chance to get up from the computer and move around once every hour or so freshens people up and allows them to refocus. I think you'd agree that historically when we've come back from a break mid grind on a boss fight we've more often than not been able to down the boss after the break. This has also been researched and proven in a working environment - hence the law, with no break people lose focus and make more and more mistakes.

3. We've been marketing ourselves as a 'serious raid' when it comes to applicants and the raid itself at least since the beginning of WotLK - imo the problem lies in talking the talk but not walking the walk. Someone mentioned this during the officer discussion on vent after the raid. Be stricter about afks and DCs sure, but the most crucial thing is actually enforcing the rules that have been established.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:23 pm 
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Something occurred to me. I think maybe we need to reassure people that the raid has not been reduced to "ashes." Unless I'm mistaken, we have lost Cliffton and Jezrael. As valuable as they are, I think some people have leapt to the dramatic conclusion that nearly all is lost and the raid has been decimated into oblivion. We do need to rebuild the sub list, of course, but our regular list has not changed by a large %.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Well clearly with the loss of my huntardly skills the raid HAS been reduced to ashes *preens*

Ok so maybe not :P

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:11 pm 
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I don't think people are perceiving that extremely, just that morale needs a boost in some fashion. We are definitely in an attendance rut and the sub bench needs rebuilt so we need to set ppls expectations lower as necessary based on the roster for the week until we get things filled out. Personally I would still recommend we extend the Whiskey raid ID on weeks we have a solid full roster of sign-ups to grind the harder bosses and make some progression. I personally want Queen and Sindragosa down in Whiskey within the next 2 months, can't do that if we keep having to do full clears of early content. I'd rather ride ppl on failing on progression fights than get frustrated at fails of farm content like Rotface this week, it affords us to be more demanding in that scenario and demand ppl focus to win a difficult fight we have never won before. Again, I think we waited too long in Ulduar to utilize the raid extension features, and we are doing the same here and people are getting bored of doing the same farm content week in and week out to the point they are just zombies coming to the raid and not truly challenged.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:08 pm 
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My desire to play is still nonpositive even just for Vermouth once a week, so I think this will be my last week running with Vermouth at all, and I don't plan on coming back to WoW in the near future.

My issues with the raid are not related to my decision to stop playing, except perhaps indirectly. I am bored of playing.

It would definitely help the raid to stop calling out obvious stuff on vent. Things that players can notice for themselves they should be expected to notice for themselves. Don't call it out on vent, that's just a crutch that ends up reducing people's dependence on their own situational awareness. Ex: Incinerate Flesh (Jaraxxus), Snobolds (Beasts), Spikes (Bonestorm Guy). All of these things are obvious and raiders worthy of a top tier raid neither require nor desire an audible warning on vent - they will take care of it on their own without warning. It's more distracting than helpful. Save ventrilo bandwidth for important information.

Crazy idea: Try moving Whiskey to Saturday nights instead of Friday. Have an optional "pre raid" raid on Friday nights. If everyone makes it on Friday, reset the raid instance and have a pre-raid clear of early bosses to continue on Saturday. If the Friday raid is a no-go for whatever reason, extend the raid ID and continue from where you left off the previous week on Saturday. Drop both raids to like 2.5-3 hours instead of 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:05 am 
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- Seelyon and Dizzy are both great players and as such would make great tanks for whisky

- Malizz is also an excellent player but I think the healing area loses to much puting him as tank


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 Post subject: Re: Taking a hiatus from Whiskey
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:37 am 
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