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Drunken Badgers of Feathermoon • View topic - Down the road idea....

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 Post subject: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:34 am 
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Here is something I've noticed, and I'm sure others have too.

The 25 man raid often fails at execution, such that more experience with the fight is needed.
Those who usually do the best are those who have also had experience with these fights on 10 man. And have supplemented their gear from 10 man.

So... the next time we form up a 25 man raid (Cataclysm or whatever) to replace Whiskey...
What do you think about requiring players to be in a 10 man raid also (either with us, or not, be flexible) with that same character in order to either be a regular or on the loot list?

Once you have completed the instance on 10 man, you don't have to keep doing it. I know eventually people will be out of loot / usefulness in the raid. This can be sort of flexible. If you've been in a 10 man for 2 months and are tired of it, it's probably enough anyway.

Just trying to encourage people to be better prepared for our fights, both gearwise and fight experiance wise, by asking people to be in a 10 man raid also.

This starts to encroach upon our "casual" raiding by forcing people to raid twice a week.... but if we want to improve from where we are it may be a needed step.

Of course if you're satisfied with our 25 man performance... maybe this isn't an issue. But I have a feeling that those of us who DO run 10 man ICC get frustrated at the performance of those who do not.

And of course I think its way too late to make any change for Whiskey, so... "down the road..."


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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:54 am 
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Chia and I were talking about this the other day, definately some has to do with fight preparedness and simply people having different learning curves. The big crux of the problem is we raid 1 night on 25 and hit the hard progression content later in the evening when we are already tired and not as sharp. This becomes more apparent in instances like Ulduar and ICC where there is a lot of clearing to get to the next boss, while TOC was probably the best raid instance for Whiskey's schedule and allowed us to get a server 2nd kill on heroic beasts, and Chaser to tie the for the week with Insanity in 10 man.

The other progression raids if you look at their logs, do all the easy farm content in one night and save the wipe fest grinding to the next night to get the boss kill. TBH I don't think Whiskey wipes more, just about the same but of a week's span and most times we run out of time to wipe grind. We've never in the past been able to pull off a 2nd night, I don't think that will change unless we do something more drastic than to make it optional. I liked Ulduar and ICC more than TOC, but had to accept the fact that these instances require a multi-night raid to progress effectively, as we can't expect in the 4th hour in a raid for everyone to be at the top of their game and executing perfectly. You may have your flukes like Queen last week with a perfect execution on the last attempt..but that required raid leadership yelling and prodding people to get focused.

The 10 man is a good idea to supplement and all but if people can make the time for a full 10 man raid then my take is a large majority at least could allocate that time like 2-3 hrs even on a weeknight to clear early 25 man content.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:12 pm 
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Well the 10 man allows a lot more flexibility on when, that's always been our problem.

We may have 1-2 guild 10 man raids, maybe the aussies will make a raid, maybe some of us will take our alts and do more than one a week even. Some people may choose to go do 10 mans with some other friends... who knows. As long as they're doing it to learn the fights better and be more prepared for our 25....


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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:45 pm 
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The folks who play more perform better, this is dicta fundamental.

Yes it is frustrating to me to watch fails on numerous bosses that are not complex compared to anything we've done in the past simply because people are not as well prepared for the fight as I am. I'm not perfect, I make mistakes too, but my mistakes are because I'm tired, or because I'm bored of countless attempts that should have been fewer attempts, or because I'm tired of incessant QQ'ing on vent and repetition of useless (to me, b/c I'm prepared) information about the fight.

I want fails to be because an encounter is difficult, not because some players don't understand a simple mechanic (e.g. Blood queen brain link & archimonde fire). It should not take us dozens of attempts to master those simple mechanics, only a few.

I'm for Zoble's idea. Requiring a 10-man for everyone will require them to raid more, and this is positively necessary for some people and beneficial for all.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:57 pm 
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I think you're mistaking correlation with causation. Take a look at the folks who have a 10 man raid on their Whiskey mains. These folks were top performers before forming 10-mans through ToC and ICC. It's not the extra gear, it's not the extra practice.

Top performers, because they are always looking for that extra 1%, care a great deal about intermediate upgrades and acquiring badges faster than the 1 night 25man raid allows. These folks are driven to create a 10-man raid with like-minded folks. If anything, it's the top performers who cause the supplemental 10s, not the supplemental 10s that create top performance.

Forcing 10-mans on to folks who don't want to organize one will not make them better. Organizing official, supplemental raids will leave some people out (25 is not evenly divisible by 10) and force some folks into non-whiskey roles (4-6 tanks needed for 2-3 10s, and only 3 for the 25). Official 10s will create resentment as raids with 25-geared folks in their 25-role will outperform the other 10 (with offspec tanks, healers, and the low-end DPSers). Remember the ZA with Cliffton went on to become the basis for the bear run, but the ZA without Cliffton was missing a critical key to success (geared aoe tank for eagle boss) and struggled just to down bosses.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:29 pm 
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How would you enforce something like this? What if they went outside of the guild in a terrible reg 10-man and never even manage to get to the bosses we want them to practice on for a long time? I've pugged enough ICC raids recently outside of guild that had a formal reg raid member schedule that can't make it past Suarafang. So will the requirement be a 10-man raid that can progress to the bosses that Whiskey is on? Chaser and Vermouth made the 10 man content trivial because it was 100% comprised of good reg and backup sub players. Not so much after you get past that..remember TQ worm lasted maybe about 3 weeks and stopped due to being unable to close the book on Anub, there were good players in that raid too. I just don't see how this raid management overhead can be coordinated and monitored effectively ensuring all regs and approved subs meet this requirement beyond highly recommending them be in a 10-man.

I'd rather a system where we post the strat on the forum, and get confirmation posts on the strat from all members both regs and subs, stating they've studied the strats and videos. Don't post and confirm on all progression boss strats means you are unprepared and you will not be taken even if signed up. Also to address Cliff's frustration we go with the 3 strike system in raid, 3 failures on a simple mechanic like brain link or engulfing shadows or kiting the right path during the the entire raid will result in a 1 raid suspension e.g. they will not come to the next raid, raid officers will review the mistakes and make a consensus vote, no one is exempt including the officers. As it goes for spoon feeding the strat while live at a boss, this practice should stop unless we are changing strats published on the forum. "You know the mechanics and strats we published, let's pull..btw don't forget about the 3 strikes!" The forum compliance will weed out the folks to lazy to click browse the links and read, and the 3 strikes policy will weed out the liars about reading/watching the strat or just raiders who don't care to contribute to the success of the raid.


We, myself included have approached preparedness and performance mistakes too casually in Whiskey and not adhering to the guidelines that we chartered for this raid. If we want better raid performance, We have to measure and analyze the defects and take corrective action through published clear consequences we execute without exceptions ( Haha sounds so Six Sigmaish).

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:35 pm 
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RhaeynOwlbear wrote:
I think you're mistaking correlation with causation. Take a look at the folks who have a 10 man raid on their Whiskey mains. These folks were top performers before forming 10-mans through ToC and ICC. It's not the extra gear, it's not the extra practice.
Your buzzphrase does not deter me. There is certainly a correlation between {top performing players} and {players who seek, perform, and organize 10-mans}. It would be inane to claim that running an encounter a few times on 10-man doesn't improve understanding & execution of the encounter on 25-man. Improving understanding and execution of an encounter improves player performance.

Quote:
Organizing official, supplemental raids will leave some people out (25 is not evenly divisible by 10) and force some folks into non-whiskey roles (4-6 tanks needed for 2-3 10s, and only 3 for the 25). Official 10s will create resentment as raids with 25-geared folks in their 25-role will outperform the other 10 (with offspec tanks, healers, and the low-end DPSers).
Off-spec roles performing worse are excuses - just get it done. There's plenty of capability to run 10-man versions of instances in just 10-man gear quality. The benefits of running 10-man are largely about execution. Even a failed encounter in 10-man executed properly is a strong benefit to properly executing the 25-man sooner.

There might be a world in which the SK list can be shared amongst the 10-mans down the road. 30-35 people running 10-mans using one SK list could account for all 25-man regulars and subs, all on the same loot list. For example, the DB raid engine changes to 3 10-mans a week composed of the same players who make up the 25-man. Some players sit out sometimes - so what? Often times there's a couple of players who can't make it anyways. All players know the fights better. If one of the 3 is struggling we can swap players around with the best of the 3, so the best can teach the worst.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:08 pm 
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I think that 10 man expeience on the fights is extremely beneficial and I would support asking everyone to be in a 10 man on the progression content.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:58 pm 
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It can be enforced through a feedback loop that includes the loot system, based on the assumption that loot=motivation. One such setup that I like is for the 25-man raid to use a particular type of spend-all DKP system. Each raider gets 1 DKP for achieving one or more 10-man encounter successes that the 25-man did not achieve during the previous lockout. This makes earning DKP fairly hard to do, but DKP is a reward for demonstrating a minimum level of competence in a 10-man version of an encounter.

Completely independent from this spend-all DKP system we could keep another spend-all DKP system (i.e. our current SK list with 8-week reshuffles) for typical loot distribution. The new spend-all system would trump SK bids and never reshuffle/expire.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:49 pm 
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Maybe something simpler like YJ's suggestion is a better place to start.

We can "highly recommend" that you have a 10 man or seek one out, and if a raid app is submitted and its someone who will not pursue a 10 man, then it's a big negative.

But forcing people to actually post on the forum I think would help also. We already bring them here in theory for raid ninja... shouldn't be much of a step further.

I don't like complex changes to the loot system :P

What I've seen other pug raids do is to say if you screw up on a boss in a way you should know better, you can't win loot from it. (getting hit by charge of yeti) This may be a 1 strike thing on bosses that are on farm, and a 2? strike thing on progression bosses.

Just trying to throw out ideas to encourage people to do more. Heck, maybe we should just ask them. "What can we as a raid do to encourage you to research the fights more and be more prepared for fights? We'd like you all to be in a 10-man to see the fights twice as often."


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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:09 pm 
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I don't think that without loot being involved the motivation for many will become strong enough to really change their habits.

Loot doesn't necessarily need to get more complex, it could just change to be the trump DKP system and no underlying mechanisms at all as long as it features the key factor - that attending and performing in 10-mans gives loot reward in the 25.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Cliffton wrote:
It would be inane to claim that running an encounter a few times on 10-man doesn't improve understanding & execution of the encounter on 25-man. Improving understanding and execution of an encounter improves player performance.

Where's the line, though? After you've done the boss 10 times, the 11th probably still helps. After 20, does the 21st?

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Maybe a much more vague rule of...

"We must know you are trying outside of just this raid to learn the fights and progress" and have that be related to a question on the app.

-A 10 man is one way to show us this. As I said earlier, you don't have to KEEP your 10 man forever, but you need to find one that succeeds enough to be ahead of the 25 man raid. From what we've seen with current content, this shouldn't be hard (if our alt raid can do it...)

-Posting in all the tactics threads with questions, ideas, and proof that you've read it and thought about the fights is another way.

-Being active in raid leadership is another way

-There may be yet other ways and we can let people even come up with their own to be approved.

-Two (Three?) strikes and you're out though. Not that you screw up (everyone screws up), but that you came to the raid unprepared for something you should have been prepared for ("I've never done this boss, what does he do?" when there has been a forum thread with a video etc etc). And I mean "out" as no longer a regular. And removed from loot lists at least temporarily if you were to keep coming as a sub (Maybe have it be that you have to come twice and show you're prepared to be added back to list for the 3rd time you come) It needs to be harsh enough so people are strongly encouraged, but not so harsh as that they would leave the raid and never come back.

And here's a controversial one...
-If your internet connection or wow settings or whatever causes us to wipe or wait for you more than ~3 minutes more than once in a raid we will immediately seek a replacement and you'll be placed on sub status until we're satisfied that it's fixed. If it happens once and you know it will keep happening, tell the raid to replace you sooner and you'll get no penalty.


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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:52 pm 
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RhaeynOwlbear wrote:
Cliffton wrote:
It would be inane to claim that running an encounter a few times on 10-man doesn't improve understanding & execution of the encounter on 25-man. Improving understanding and execution of an encounter improves player performance.

Where's the line, though? After you've done the boss 10 times, the 11th probably still helps. After 20, does the 21st?


That's why I said tie in the loot system to only give credit when downing a new encounter on 10-man that Whiskey hasn't yet. If the 25 has not beaten the encounter, then clearly we need more practice and not everyone is across that line.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:17 am 
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Another "Down the road" idea...

Once we get to a point where we have some bosses on farm and some we're wiping to for progression...

Have raids on 2 nights completely. Like we're doing with vermouth now, have raid #1 be the "easy bosses" and raid #2 being "progression bosses". But keep raid #1 very short, like 2 hours max. This leaves some work to be done in raid #2 still perhaps before the actual progression but leaves time to learn bosses etc.

Night #1, we open it up to whoever wants to come. Guildies not normally in the raid, alts, raid applicants, friends, family, random pugs, we don't care. Loot isn't tracked on this night and just do some form of fair random looting. This means that several regulars can blow off the first night completely if they want. Or as I mentioned, bring your alts if you want.

Night 2 is the one that counts towards SK list, etc. Night 1 is optional to even happen... if you can't reasonably get the raid together with those who want to come, oh well, blow it off. But if it can happen, we get better progression raiding on night 2.

This way, night 1 we would be very friendly and casual and invite whoever.
Night 2 we would be assholes and only invite the elite as regulars. With our current raid makeup as an example, this might mean that we only have 15 regulars and 20 subs instead of 25 regulars and 10 subs. But by shuffling people through on night 1 (applicants, friends, etc) we can hopefully make more new good contacts for probably raiders on night #2?

Anyway, this is probably all hypothetical anyway, since night #1 would obviously have to be a night before Friday night, which already excludes the aussies, and that's probably a no-no. And that's been our problem all along with any 2 night approach. But it sounded good in my head so I thought I would post it :P


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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:41 pm 
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we did try something like this before and it did not work out so well. i recall that group wiping on flame leviathon.....


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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Like when we cleared up to Opera the night before in Kara? Man, I still remember getting cussed out by pugs who were told in advance "we are stopping after 3 bosses."

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:17 pm 
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oh well alright, just throwing ideas out there, maybe its a bad one :P


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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Eh. People are stupid. You can only spell things out for them so far, and if they're still not getting it I just can't be held responsible. "We are stopping after X bosses. I will continue the raid after X bosses the following night. You will not be invited. This is only for people who wouldn't get to raid otherwise." If they don't understand that this will get them saved to the instance, then they weren't going to find another raid to carry them anyhow, or maybe pugged something that couldn't down any bosses.

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 Post subject: Re: Down the road idea....
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:42 pm 
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I think the real only option will be raid leadership going to an extended raid ID rotation every other week. There will always be that one off drop someone has been waiting for as an upgrade, but again if the bosses we are grinding are not limited by a gear check. I don't know where we draw that line in the sand and cutoff (maybe when all regs have their 4-pc 10.2 version main set), we will still hit farm content every other week, but it will get us more time on the progression bosses early in the raid time. Our goal right now should be to down the LK as soon as we can because as soon as we do that we can unlock hardmode and go back to farm bosses in heroic mode and get better gear drops.

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